Plant Medicines In Faith, “Journeying” With out Medication, & Extra

From podcast: 

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:00:41] Podcast Sponsors

[00:05:29] Visitor Intro

[00:08:21] How Paul initially grew to become keen on plant medicines

[00:10:56] What dose of mushrooms did Paul usually take

[00:11:58] Paul’s ideas on microdosing

[00:18:19] What is the distinction between a religious expertise versus a psychedelic expertise

[00:21:06] Ben’s expertise with religious journeying

[00:23:43] Paul’s use of fasting to reinforce the religious journey and his suggestion to watch out with the origins of some types of meditation and breathwork

[00:26:53] Podcast Sponsors

[00:30:16] Paul’s revelations by writing his e-book the Psychedelic Christian

[00:34:23] If folks have had breakthroughs with plant medicines, such has therapeutic childhood trauma, what’s the downside behind utilizing them?

[00:39:42] Two concerns that Ben hadn’t thought of when utilizing plant drugs to change into nearer to God

[00:47:06] Medicinal use for therapeutic from trauma

[00:54:35] Ben’s tendency to not encourage {couples} to journey until they’re already spiritually on path as a Christian

[00:57:05] Paul’s ideas on the intersection of psychedelics and faith

[01:07:36] The darkish religious vitality of plant drugs that Ben hasn’t skilled with artificial alternate options, and why ben recommends selecting synthetics

[01:11:16] Closing the Podcast

[01:11:53] Parts of Vitality

[01:15:31] Finish of Podcast

Ben:  My identify is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

Paul:  I might see issues within the spirit realm that have been very transcendent, and that affected my coronary heart, affected my soul, and that confirmed me issues of the afterlife and confirmed me issues, the essence and the truth of issues that I used to be wrestling with in that second.

Ben:  Religion, household, health, well being, efficiency, diet, longevity, ancestral dwelling, biohacking and a complete lot extra. Welcome to the present.

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Effectively, of us, my visitor on as we speak’s present is two-Peter. That is even a phrase? He is a two-parter, two-Peter. He is a repeat visitor. His identify is Paul Risse. He is a very fascinating man. He truly wrote a e-book some time again that I learn not too way back, however it was a couple of months. It was known as “The Psychedelic Christian.” That is proper, “The Psychedelic Christian.” And, we truly did this entire episode on the intersection of plant medicines and Christianity, on microdosing, on accessing religious realms, on DMT, and much more as a result of Paul has a singular perspective as a man who’s finished a variety of psycho nodding, so to talk, however then can be a Christian and has developed some distinctive views on this entire intersection of plant drugs and Christianity over time.

He additionally, in case you take heed to our earlier episode, which I will hyperlink to within the shownotes, in case you acquired a, that is, has engaged in a complete bunch of different fascinating issues. So, not solely has he taken a crap ton of psychedelics from DMT to salvia to 2CB and 2CI and LCD and mushrooms, however he is additionally constructed and written a e-book about tiny properties. He has a e-book known as “Kinda Tiny Residence: An Unorthodox Method To Constructing And Proudly owning Your Personal Tiny Residence.” If that is one thing that you just occur to be keen on, that’s on no account related to what we’ll talk about on as we speak’s present, however fascinating nonetheless.

He lives in Texas. He is a house builder and works with an organization known as Hayhurst Brothers. He is married to Brittany Risse. They’ve a 23-year-old daughter and he is within the philosophy and journey and life. And, when he has nothing else to do approaching this present — oh, and by the best way, simply so that you guys know, he is acquired a health background. He was a private coach previously for shoppers on ABC’s Excessive Makeover present. He is a private coach, chef, and life coach for Common Joe on the Uncooked, which is a documentary on Meals Issues TV. He himself 100% uncooked vegan for a few years whereas on the similar time he is dwelling off the grid with no electrical energy for a 12 months. Not uncooked vegan anymore, he says he now eats intuitively. We talked somewhat bit about this on our final podcast, and he is additionally led a ton of cleanses because the CEO of one thing known as Cleanse America.

I believe I lined all of it, did not I, Paul?

Paul:  Sure, that is excellent.

Ben:  Alright. Effectively, there’s clearly tons of issues we might discuss along with your in depth historical past and the whole lot from tiny properties to intestine cleanses. However, I clearly wish to discuss as we speak about the entire plant drugs piece as a result of it is one thing that as you understand, I wrote an article sequence about a couple of months in the past, I have been getting numerous questions on it and I did not need this entire podcast simply flip into me and my very own voice and never take heed to the views of different folks and the fascinating concepts that they may deliver to the desk.

So, earlier than we leap into a number of the issues that I wish to ask you particularly associated to your individual perspective on this, are you able to simply rehash for individuals who did not get an opportunity to take heed to our former podcast, your curiosity in and use of plant medicines, like the way you form of acquired, I do not know, the way you say drugified or no matter within the first place?

Paul:  Oh, yeah. So, raised in a Christian family and I by no means drank alcohol and by no means took any medication till I used to be 18 and left my mother and father’ home, went to school, and have wonderful Christian mother and father. My mom’s previous, however gave me a unbelievable upbringing. Rebelled in opposition to God across the age of 12 out of worry, form of harden my coronary heart. I began searching for hypocrisy within the church and within the Bible. And, if you do not have a relationship with Jesus, that is fairly simple to seek out.

Ben:  It is fairly simple to seek out in case you do or you do not have a relationship with Jesus. Hypocrisy. Effectively, not simply the church, however in each sector of life. Appears human beings have a bent in direction of saying one factor and doing one other, proper?

Paul:  Sure. And, that is even a mirrored image of me generally. So, in faculty, I took mushrooms and I smoke weed, and drank. And, I did not ever actually like consuming, however I discovered that I wish to smoke weed and I wish to take mushrooms. It was actually fascinating and enjoyable to me, however it was extra leisure in the beginning. And, I might say across the age of 21, I went by a wedding of about 3.5 years. And, it resulted in divorce and it resulted in an amazing quantity of ache and left me coping with some very deep religious points that I didn’t have a basis for understanding or did I’ve the religious knowledge or maturity to know how one can cope with any of it. 

And so, I discovered that I began taking mushrooms and turning into extra intentional in that journey. And so, yeah, I might say over the course of a decade, near a thousand occasions. I simply form of know what number of occasions I did them over the course, like 4 or 5 years, 5 days every week. And so, simply form of doing the maths. However yeah, in order that’s a really, very brief model of there’s every kind of tales combined into that decade with relationships.

Ben:  Yeah, positive. And, we talked about a few of these different tales in our different podcast for positive. I simply wish to give folks a primary overview.

And, by the best way, once you say you probably did mushrooms a thousand occasions, I am assuming you are not speaking microdosing with mushrooms, you are tripping out, journeying. How hefty of a dose are we speaking?

Paul:  I might say not fairly often the place I used to be doing heroic doses, however undoubtedly to the purpose of hallucinating. Generally at any time when I might go to work, I used to be a waiter on the time, additionally petty cabbing and Austin, Texas pulling folks round on bikes and making jewellery, and so I took mushrooms loads whereas I did all of these issues. And generally, I might take different medication to steadiness out the slippery half and make me sharper. However yeah, more often than not I might say a few of it was microdosing, however I wasn’t tremendous interested in microdosing. And, again then, all this language did not even exist. I do not suppose microdosing was even an expression. Each time I have interaction this stuff again then, they have been fringe, however I often ate them with the intent to hallucinate.

Ben:  Yeah.

What do you concentrate on microdosing now as a result of, I imply, this may simply get us straight into somewhat bit extra of a broad vary of dialogue on all of this? However, I wrote within the article sequence that I lately did on plant medicines that I believe that there’s maybe a time and a spot for a few of these issues that God planted on the planet. And, one among them may very well be to extend sensory notion and to take what’s certainly a sub-perceptual dose of a substance to only have the ability to suppose somewhat bit extra creatively or focus or one thing like that with no hallucinating or drooling out the mouth or doing ecstatic dance in anyway. What are your ideas on taking sub-perceptual doses of a few of these plant drugs compounds?

Paul:  Man, that is most likely one of many deeper issues I wrestle with. And, intellectually and biblically, I might say that to be biblically trustworthy and to be intellectually trustworthy, I do not see any cause in doing small quantity of mushrooms to the purpose we’re not hallucinating. And so, my concern is is that I am feeling this tug in my spirit even in saying that due to the notion and the programming that’s occurring round mushrooms. 

And so, if any person have been to take my phrases and be like, “Yeah, there is a man who did them a bunch of occasions.” And, he mentioned, “It is cool to do small quantities,” however then they do a small quantity they usually’re opening themselves up as a result of they’re utilizing me for example. After which, swiftly, they take heed to a podcast, it is like, “Effectively, in case you’re doing a small quantity, you need to do that.” After which, swiftly, they’re psychonaut and opening up their spirit to realms they are not conversant in or ready for, and it may very well be very detrimental to their spirit and their soul. 

And so, that has been arising in me. And, I believe it is simply the timing of actuality proper now, and simply because this data is all over the place and it is so fashionable that it is nearly onerous to have an harmless relationship with this substance proper now.

Ben:  Yeah. So, it is form of just like the slippery slope fallacy. It is like, effectively, in case you strive somewhat bit, you may wind up attempting somewhat bit extra nearly like a gateway drug argument.

Paul:  Effectively, maybe, however I might say much less of a gateway drug and extra of if somebody has inclination in direction of religious development exterior of God and simply private growth, in the event that they obtain a small quantity of development by taking a microdose, the logical subsequent step is to take somewhat bit extra. And so, I might say that I imagine God created the mushroom. I imagine he created receptors in our physique to course of it. I imagine that it could actually have worth for individuals who have PTSD, nervousness, despair. We have seen the research on that now, however what I haven’t got consolation is that if there’s 1,000,000 those who do this, what proportion of that quantity then engages in them to the next diploma in direction of detrimental to them?

And so, that is form of the wrestling match I’ve with it, truthfully and I might say it is most likely spiritually safer to not have interaction with them. However biblically, I believe the rules are to your helmet of salvation to have that sturdy, to be sober-minded, and to be of a sound thoughts, and to not be a stumbling block. And, I do not suppose that microdosing falls into any of these classes so far as going in opposition to what the Bible teaches.

Ben:  Yeah. Effectively, I imply to provide you my tackle it, I am completely okay with microdosing with no matter, LSD or huachuma or psilocybin and even alcohol, for instance, I say a microdose with as a result of I’ve a small quantity within the evenings with dinner almost each night time. Though I do know alcohol is loads totally different as a result of it is very tough to drink an excessive amount of alcohol and enter into some unusual religious world the place you wind up placing your self vulnerable to getting possessed or uncovered to darkish entities or that sort of factor. I believe there’s a area that the Bible differentiates between alcohol and pharmakia or many of those different medication. I believe that’s the reason as a result of these different medication can be utilized for divination with the gods or experiencing different religious realms in a much more intense method than one would have the ability to do by say consuming a complete bottle of wine.

However, that being mentioned, I additionally acknowledge the truth that if I’m taking small sub-perceptual doses of one thing that if taken in massive quantities might permit any human being to cross into form of like Chronicles of Narnia wardrobe, this religious realm that is possibly not simply all sunshine and rainbows and unicorns, however in actual fact contain some darkish entities and demons and the kind of issues that may lead to schizophrenia and bipolar and actually change a human being quickly if not completely. I am very cautious and way more cautious now than I was with the place these sort of issues are stored round the home. And, whether or not they’re handled casually versus given somewhat bit extra intention with their use and the way excessive up on a shelf or in a fridge they’re in terms of their capability to be grabbed by a small youngster. And so, I believe that you just simply need to proceed with a terrific deal extra respect and warning than I believe lots of people do, and as you alluded to earlier, guarantee your self and others round you that you’ve got the self-control to not, on the weekend simply since you occur to have 10 grams of mushrooms round that have been alleged to final you for 3 months, take half or all of it and simply see what occurs. That is the place the dangers are. 

And, talking of taking, no matter, 10 grams of mushrooms, such as you talked about, you probably did this loads for visions and you probably did this loads for tripping and for revelations. However, how is that any totally different than, as an instance, what somebody may expertise in the event that they have been in an ecstatic worship session at church or say of their dwelling doing devotions and prayer and out of the blue being, as they are saying, swept up within the Holy Spirit and beginning to see visions and tingling within the fingertips and all this stuff that may be had within the absence of plant drugs? How do you differentiate the 2?

What is the distinction between a private imaginative and prescient or revelation that somebody attribute to the Holy Spirit versus a psychedelic expertise?

Paul:  Yeah, it is a terrific query. And, in the identical line, what is the distinction in a dream or if I am going trip my bike 100 miles and I hallucinate by exertion on the finish or intercourse, hallucinating or respiration. So, it is fascinating how the thoughts works. However, particularly in direction of an expertise with the Holy Spirit, I’ve had visions from God that I actually imagine and have felt in my coronary heart and have led to repentance and have led to me being on my face crying out to God and eager to do nothing greater than worship Jesus and browse the Bible.

Ben:  What’s that appear like? For individuals who have not skilled that earlier than, what actually, actually does it appear like? The place are you and what occurs and what do you see?

Paul:  Effectively, I will simply seek advice from the e-book, however there was a three-month interval, and I’ve skilled the Holy Spirit in numerous methods and the timeline for it’s it is less than me, it is as much as God. And, if I by no means have one other expertise with the Holy Spirit, then I shall be okay till the day I die. However, for these three months, there was a tangible essence. 

So, think about in case you’re blind and you are feeling the wind, however no person sees it, that is form of what it felt like, is sort of a religious, tangible presence of the Holy Spirit. And, there can be occasions as effectively, at any time when I might simply past my face crying and a imaginative and prescient similar to taking psychedelics or extra truthfully like DMT, just a bit bit clearer and extra vivid would come from the Holy Spirit. And, I might see issues within the spirit realm that have been very transcendent and that affected my coronary heart, affected my soul, and that confirmed me issues of the afterlife and confirmed me issues, the essence and the truth of issues that I used to be wrestling with in that second. And, generally there was a visionary state that is achieved from that. After which, generally it’s a bodily feeling in your physique. After which, generally it is simply within the thoughts’s eye. And, I discover that even in taking mushrooms, it may very well be comparable like generally I might get a physique excessive, and actually, I might stroll a mile in a handstand or I might run sooner than I’ve ever run in my life or be extra linked to my physique.  So, I believe that they’ll mirror that.

Ben:  Stronger or weaker than tripping with the drug?

Paul:  Clearer is how I might describe it. Much less muddled, much less fuzz, much less —

Ben:  I agree. I clearly am asking this query as any person who has expertise this similar sensation myself. I believe stronger and weaker most likely aren’t the appropriate phrases. It is form of like apples and oranges. It is like having a journey, however being totally lucid, totally in management, having the ability to keep in mind the whole lot, write the whole lot down and are available out the opposite facet and never really feel such as you’ve exhausted your serotonin ranges or one thing like that. And, it’s, I would not say, controllable since you’re experiencing no matter God needs you to expertise and seeing no matter God needs you to see, however it’s actually one thing that’s extra accessible regularly, and such as you talked about ends in much more readability.

Now, that being mentioned, and that is the place I’ve caught some flack, and I do not know what you concentrate on this, Paul, however there are specific issues you are able to do to reinforce the potential that your worship time or your devotion time or your religious time with God goes to lead to one thing that may be somewhat bit extra highly effective or somewhat bit extra, I am hesitant to throw this round however plant drugs journeying-esque. Not that that is what we ought to be going for, however these are comparisons that we’re trying to attract to clarify going to individuals who, as an instance, possibly have tripped on mushrooms however have not had an intense expertise with God. 

And, that might be issues like breath work, burning of incense or different important oils, actually, actually good music, a spot that is extra sacred than generally simply, I do not know, laying in mattress within the morning along with your Bible open, and generally even an ecstatic state of affairs by which you are surrounded by a complete bunch of different folks and a few actually huge devices in a worship session in a church getting blasted by the music along with your fingers up within the air with 100 different voices singing together with you. There are particular issues that I believe improve a religious expertise that I do not suppose we will say are fallacious as a result of we depend on them as a crutch to have the ability to expertise God extra deeply. That is simply how God constructed us to answer sound and lightweight and air and smells and the presence of different folks and electromagnetic alerts. I truly do not suppose there’s something fallacious with utilizing whether or not it is historic knowledge or trendy science to reinforce and deepen a religious expertise.

What do you concentrate on that?

Paul:  For me personally, fasting is an amazing method to improve it.

Ben:  Oh, yeah, you are proper, I forgot about that.

Paul:  Yeah, fasting to me has been the primary method. I hadn’t fasted shortly, and a pair weeks in the past, there was some fairly deep religious stuff I used to be wrestling with and praying by for some folks I really like and God simply known as me to quick, and simply did nothing however liquids for 3 days. And, by day two, man, I simply felt God was simply carrying me on a cloud by the day and simply talking to my coronary heart and displaying me how one can pray, displaying me what to hope for, and simply an excessive lightness of being in nearly an emanating pleasure the place I simply wished to only be crying however not from unhappiness simply from presence.

Ben:  Yeah.

Paul:  And so, I discover that fasting for me is an effective method of doing that. Respiratory. God says, “Be nonetheless and know that I am God.” There is a sure method you possibly can breathe that results in a stillness in your thoughts. And, God breathed into us the breath of life. Now, if there’s an actual science behind the rhythm of it or something like that, that is as much as every particular person, I imagine, and you need to watch out with the origins of respiration as a result of a few of them have origins that aren’t primarily based spiritually in God. So, simply pay attention to that.

Ben:  Wait, what do you imply by that?

Paul:  Like tantric respiration, like transcendental meditation. There’s totally different types of meditation or respiration which have a religious root that’s exterior of God. And, in case you have been practising these issues, you could have the flexibility to channel the spirit that’s on the root of that perception system. And so, I believe so long as you are conscious that you just’re not doing that particularly and that you’re attempting to connect with God and to know the way him intimately and to point out your love for God by worshiping Him and connecting to Him, then yeah, that is unbelievable.

Ben:  Yeah. As a result of I used to be going to say that is the yoga argument. It is like, yeah, you might be a Christian and go do yoga and do it for the stretching and ignore the entire religious parts that may truly fly within the face of one thing like Judeo-Christian perception that may be coming from extra Jap or Buddhist orientations and also you’d nonetheless have the ability to profit from the yoga and the stretching and the down canine pose or no matter as a result of it is good on your hamstrings or your shoulder complicated. 

Equally, I believe you might do even one thing like, as an instance, tantric respiration, inhale deeply and slowly then exhale out and empty your lungs. And, a variety of occasions you are doing that in an audible method. And, generally you are even doing it along with your accomplice throughout intercourse to reinforce the sexual expertise. Effectively, I believe there’s nothing fallacious with that, however I believe when you begin to acknowledge and attempt to faucet into Shiva and Shakti vitality and start to name upon Shiva or acknowledge the god Shakti or issues like that, then I believe you run the danger. So, I do not suppose it is the respiration follow itself by way of the mechanics of the respiration as a lot because the intention and the acknowledgment of what is going on on throughout it.

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Alright, what’s the issue with wine as we speak? Wine is extremely processed identical to our meals. I like wine simply the identical as you most likely do. I drink a glass of wine nearly each night. However, here is the issue. Three large wine corporations promote over 50% of the wine within the U.S. Over 76 components are at present legally accepted to be used in winemaking. We’re speaking dyes, thickeners, and GMO yeast. The highest 20 wines bought within the U.S. include very excessive ranges of sugar and alcohol. 

And so, mainly, we’re consuming poison a variety of occasions. That is why you get up and have a headache and you are feeling blah. I can drink, I do not do it, however I can drink two or three glasses of the kind of wine that I truly drink. It is natural and biodynamic. It is sugar-free. It is low alcohol. It is lab examined for purity. It is grown on small household farms. It is keto-approved. It is paleo-approved. It is acquired free transport proper to my door. It is known as Dry Farm Wines. It is one of the best pure wine on the market. 

They have entry to 55,000 acres of natural vineyards. Alright. So, a variety of these come from Europe the place there’s wholesome soil and dynamic biodiversity utilizing pure wine farming. They work with 600 small household farmers sourcing from over 600 these small household growers all who make their wine by hand utilizing issues like regenerative farming, avoiding equipment. Dry Farm Wines even helps to show them a variety of the ways that make for higher wine. They save a billion gallons of water with this wine as a result of you do not have to pour a bunch of water on wine. That makes it candy and juicy. And, we would like our wine to be antioxidant, wealthy, and tannic. And, that is the best way these Dry Farm Wines are.

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Paul:  One of many factors I wished to the touch on if we will go backwards simply actually fast on the similarities between the Holy Spirit expertise and psychedelics is that in writing the e-book, so I wrote it after I was 45 years previous and —

Ben:  You imply “The Psychedelic Christian“?

Paul:  Proper, “The Psychedelic Christian,” and I actually had by no means shared with the general public something within the e-book and it had been years since I had a psychedelic expertise in years since I had the experiences that I wrote about within the e-book from the Holy Spirit. 

And, if I am completely trustworthy, my reminiscence pale round what these visions meant in each realms and the that means of the visions pale and the significance and relevance of the visions pale. And, by all of that, God confirmed me that his phrase, the Bible, is one thing that may by no means fade. And so, if God forbid I get dementia after I’m older and I do not keep in mind a single imaginative and prescient I had from a mushroom journey or a expertise with the Holy Spirit, God’s phrase won’t ever change and will probably be there for me even when I’ve dementia. 

And so, that’s what I’ve needed to study and is among the largest errors I made as an early Christian was as a result of I had such a profound expertise with the Holy Spirit after I gave my life to Jesus and instantly began doing religious warfare and seeing the ability of Jesus’s identify over the demonic and over the spirit realm and the hierarchy of spirit that I did not learn the Bible. And, I truly had skilled myself to not like studying the Bible. And, God needed to convict me over time as a result of he needed to present me how one can learn the Bible and that is by prayer and that you just’re asking the Holy Spirit to disclose the phrases and that they’d come alive in my coronary heart and have an effect on my coronary heart and soul in the best way I believe and the best way I act and the whole lot, planting seeds in my coronary heart.

And so, it took me a few years of constructing some fairly dangerous errors and simply throughout that point even saying the Holy Spirit informed me this when it was actually my very own need and I used to be manipulating what I believed to be true with a purpose to match with my wishes. And, I imagine that the Bible exists and the wants to carry fingers with the connection of the Holy Spirit as a result of that Holy Spirit won’t ever reveal one thing to you that is not backed up by the Bible. Somebody says, effectively, the Holy Spirit informed me to depart my spouse, it is like, “Aah.” It’d really feel like that.

Ben:  Yeah.

Paul:  However, let’s get into the Bible and see if the Bible verifies that.

Ben:  Proper. There must be some mixing of absolute reality and what may be revealed to you through what you may understand as a religious expertise or a plant drugs Journey. Though, enjoying satan’s advocate, in terms of the readability of one thing a journey, I believe that that may be mitigated. I believe many individuals do that by utilizing issues like digital voice recorders and going again and enjoying them and transcribing them and getting the whole lot written down and simply the best way that a few of these medicines set off the 5-HTA receptors and a number of the different mechanisms within the physique dictate that there is impaired motor perform and impaired reminiscence and issues like that in. I do not suppose that essentially reductions the powerfulness or the that means of one thing like a plant drugs journey. 

I do not suppose that the presence or absence of readability or the flexibility to have the ability to keep in mind, make one thing proper or fallacious essentially as a result of these are points that may be skirted. I believe the deeper concern, not less than for me, is venturing into some harmful religious realms by which your soul is in danger mixed with the truth that it seems from the Bible not less than from the whole lot that I’ve studied of late that have been truly warned fairly closely in opposition to divining with the gods utilizing medication, which is mainly the rationale that heaps and plenty of individuals are utilizing plant medicines now.

Paul:  Yeah, that is good. Yeah, I hadn’t thought of utilizing the know-how you are describing. And, again then, I believe I’ll have simply journaled a few of it and stored the notes, however that is level.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah.

Now, by way of the distinction between a private imaginative and prescient or revelation being a unique from a psychedelic expertise, I believe the primary factor we have established right here is that having a deeply religious expertise isn’t essentially fallacious. It isn’t thought of to be drunk or being in an irresponsible state to make use of issues like breathwork, fasting, worship, music, smells, and issues of the wish to enter right into a deeply religious expertise and to have the ability to divine with God so to talk in that state. And, the distinction is that one is achieved through popping drugs and medicines or injections or whatnot and the opposite is achieved being on one’s knees in the lounge or within the bed room within the basement or within the yard in prayer. 

And, I believe that the means or the avenue through which one reaches that religious expertise is the primary differentiating attribute as a result of the strategy of utilizing medication to achieve that have is rife with all kinds of different points each bodily however extra concerningly religious in terms of publicity to entities that creep in once you’re venturing into these realms along with your neurotransmitters ripped broad open in the kind of state that they are in.

And so, that leads me to the following factor I wish to ask you. Individuals have these breakthroughs once they take psychedelics. And, in lots of instances, they’re good, they can sort out childhood trauma or go away previous beliefs about themselves behind or repair relationships as a result of swiftly they’re considering in a brand new method after having taken psychedelics or entheogens and had a breakthrough. In different phrases, the fruits are good, the fruits are good. If the fruits are good, then what would you say is the issue?

Paul:  That is query. And, as a mirrored image of my very own journey, there’s two kinds of fruit. One is the fruit from the world and the opposite one is fruit from God. And, from a private development path to enlightenment to world view the place you are transcending insecurities, fears, and shifting up on the notice ladder. Yeah. 

I will give a really actual instance and that is after my divorce at any time when I mentioned the whole lot was my ex-wife’s fault and had a variety of anger, a variety of ache, a variety of the whole lot, and I took mushrooms one time. And, in that have, the mushrooms simply confirmed me what I had inside my coronary heart, what I had in my thoughts, what my habits have been, what my manipulation was, how I used to be fallacious. And, it broke me at any time when I noticed that I could not blame her for the whole lot. And, that is a robust factor, most individuals will stay their complete lives holding on to a story that isn’t very wholesome for them or their development or therapeutic or something. 

And so, I might say that that was expertise for me to see that in myself. However, the dangerous half about it was that swiftly, I felt a hidden pleasure that I used to be extra conscious than folks round me that I had skilled one thing that no person else actually does. And so, I had this inner pleasure begin to creep in as a result of I began to change into extra superior than different folks.

And so, if the tip results of you overcoming worry and insecurity is that you’re in charge of your life and you don’t have any want for God and no reliance on God, then the enemy is completely content material with you buying and selling worry and insecurity for pleasure. The enemy would adore it in case you simply thought you might do the whole lot by yourself and be in cost. And, if it may give you a breakthrough — and so, that to me is the fruit of the world would appear prefer it’s saying, sure, having an expertise that’s good however the fruit from God, God is saying, “Come to me with all of your fears, your insecurities, your doubts, belief in me.” And so, that’s, I imagine, the distinction between these.

Ben:  Okay. So, I assume what I am getting at right here is that you’re going to typically hear folks say, effectively, the whole lot labored out ultimately and I mentioned this for years, Paul, that the fruits are good and my spouse and I have been truly growing a a lot, significantly better relationship by our use of journeying mixed with relationship, drug use, that means MDMA and different compounds whereas present process remedy. And in addition, I skilled a variety of enterprise breakthroughs and private breakthroughs and what I might take into account to be or describe as religious development through my very own use of plant medicines. And, that is one thing I write about within the article that despite the fact that I used to be satisfied on the time as a result of the fruits have been good, the whole lot was alright.

I assume I did not take into accounts two issues. And, that is what I am getting at. One, I used to be enjoying with fireplace as a result of each time that I might use these medication, I used to be coming into right into a religious realm the place, yeah, I acquired fortunate and this did not occur most likely as a result of I used to be a Christian and was protected by God. And, I believe I had the next energy watching my again, however I might have in some unspecified time in the future if I stored doing that sort of factor on a quarterly or a pair occasions a 12 months sort of foundation encountered some sort of entity in some unspecified time in the future in some sort of realm that might have possessed me or negatively influenced me in some method. That is the primary downside.

And, the second downside is for each 9 of me who’ve a terrific expertise, there’s going to be one one that has a very, actually dangerous expertise; both sexual abuse from some sort of a shaman who needs to make the most of them or encountering some sort of entity possibly that I did not encounter however that any person else would or having a so-called dangerous journey and getting actually tousled. I am unable to say that I’ve ever had the doubt behind my thoughts that if I informed somebody to hope within the morning and browse their Bible and sing a track and burn some incense and do some breath work that there’s a little little bit of a possible that I might actually eff them up. However, with plant drugs, there may be, it is fairly sturdy potential for one thing like that. That is why I believe the fruits are good, bro, sort of argument breaks down.

Paul:  Yeah. And, the those who have in a really possible way at any time when I used to be engaged in these realities as part of communities of individuals and there are some fairly loopy issues that occurred. And, I noticed mates that I actually love that I do not discuss to anymore as a result of they acquired taken over by very highly effective spirits that taught them how one can manipulate it. And, a few of my mates find yourself stepping into insane asylums, some have been simply shattered and damaged. And so, these are the tales that do not get informed.

Ben:  Yeah.

Paul:  And, these are the tales that get swept beneath the rug. After which, the individual with the most important following who has the most important breakthrough they usually see by their story after which they modify their complete lives and it is great. I imagine that may be a part of that have. And, even within the many occasions that I did it, I might say that from the world’s perspective, most of them have been good. I believe there have been two journeys that I had the place this individual I used to be round I noticed the vampiric nature of our relationship and it simply scared me. I simply wished to get as distant from him as doable.

After which, the opposite time was at any time when I gave my life to Christ and whereas I used to be doing all these psychedelics and dwelling off grid and we do cleaning, not consuming for 30 days at a time simply on liquids and tremendous calorie poor, however a unique interval, however I used to be lucid dreaming as effectively and I might lucid dream 9 out of ten occasions and just about on command, do no matter I wished in my goals, and as if it was actuality. 

And, I used to be taken over in my goals by these three darkish entities that have been like black holes. And, they have been taunting me as a result of I assumed I used to be highly effective they usually’re like, “Hey, you suppose you are highly effective, why do not you come play with us?” They’re actually in my goals. They’re simply taunting me and I used to be like, “Alright, I’ll go and fly over right here in my goals.” So, I might fly, after which they’d simply be there. And, they have been so darkish and so evil feeling like what was coming off of them in my goals that I actually could not sleep, after which I began to lose management of my ideas for the primary time in my life. And, I imply, I might take a celebration of eight and simply keep in mind their order whereas tripping and discuss to them as if nothing. I might management my ideas fairly effectively and the way I acted however in that place. 

And, that’s the factor is at a sure level, I imagine you proceed the journey, you are going to interface with the religious nature to such a level the place you both have to provide your life to Jesus otherwise you go loopy. And, I’ve met a bunch of people that have finished a bunch of psychedelics at an early age, after which they often have that one expertise, they’re like, “Oop, I am good. I form of went loopy for every week and I am good now and I do not ever must do ayahuasca once more.” And so, it is fascinating. I believe the longer you proceed, I believe it is an unsustainable actuality you are subjecting your self to.

Ben:  Yeah. That form of occurred to me after I began to write down about these items and discuss it. I had lots of people who’re offended about me attacking their treasured grandmother ayahuasca or grandfather ibogaine or the psilocybin that they’d discovered a lot reduction by. And, I’ve had not less than a dozen folks attain out who mentioned that after which got here again to me previously eight months have been like, “Dude, I had no clue what you have been speaking about. I ought to have listened. Here is what occurred. I had such, such a path. I am now in detox or I harm this individual or I acquired a divorce and I ought to have listened as a result of it lastly occurred what you have been warning me about. And now, I do not know how one can do away with this actually unusual darkish feeling inside me and these nightmares and waking up with heaviness on my chest.” And so, it’s fascinating as a result of it is like they are saying, it is all enjoyable and video games till any person places out an eye fixed. And, it is form of what occurs. And, you possibly can go pay attention.

The New York Journal launched its first-ever investigative sequence podcast known as “Cowl Story.” I will hyperlink to it within the shownotes in case you go to And, in that podcast, they get into a variety of the darkish facet, not simply injury to the Amazon through environmental ayahuasca tourism, but additionally sexual abuse by shamans, folks growing schizophrenia and bipolar. All these items that will get swept beneath the rug when there are discussions, I do not know, with Joe Rogan and Michael Pollan or Aubrey Marcus and Aaron Rodgers. All these folks you hear speaking about a variety of these items as of late, I simply want folks would discuss extra about a number of the stuff that is beginning to occur with mass acceptance and use of psychedelics.

After which, most likely to me, one of many extra regarding points relating to again to the fruits factor is that, yeah, possibly the fruits are good they usually’re wonderful. And, as an instance nothing dangerous ever occurs, do you actually wish to give the impression to billions of people that cannot afford these items or haven’t got entry to mushrooms or no matter? I do know some folks say they are often grown in mass for reasonable, however proper now it is not the case. Do you actually wish to give folks the impression that the one method, the one path to religious enlightenment is through this secret hidden information and entry to those particular mind-tweaking chemical compounds that if you do not have them, you are by no means going to be on the identical religious path because the individuals who do have entry to them? As a result of for my part, that is a fairly crappy method to have the ability to unfold love and lightweight internationally is to have it tied to a drug expertise, the love and lightweight that I imagine in and that I unfold as a Christian is that it is free. Yeah, having a Bible helps despite the fact that God can reveal himself to you in different methods, however for probably the most half, it is free and you do not have to maintain coming again to it over and over and getting tripped out to take issues to the following degree.

Paul:  That is so true.

Ben:  What about medicinal use within the correct set and setting for some of these things? To illustrate deep-seated trauma. To illustrate like a Christian, they have been going to a pastor they usually’ve been searching for God’s assist they usually’ve been doing all of the issues. And, they might want some form of an intense state shift and a disconnection from the frontal cortex, and somewhat little bit of an altered state of consciousness to have the ability to faucet into reminiscences that they cannot get at. So, they acquired to hammer into that part of the mind with ketamine or one thing like that with a health care provider standing by or any person who possibly hasn’t actually been in a position to connect with their accomplice for years and is aware of that in the event that they have been to take oxytocin and MDMA and sit with them in mattress for six hours observing them deep within the face and this lengthy dialogue they’ve at all times wished to have that it might certainly assist they usually’re not like going to the Peru and getting possessed by demons within the Amazon or one thing like that, however it’s extra of a medical set and setting with a selected use and intention. What are your ideas on that? 

And once more, after I say particular use of intention, particularly to not divine with God or enter right into a religious realm as a lot as to have a deeper reference to a accomplice or to faucet into part of the mind that they simply cannot faucet into in a state that their neurotransmitters are at present in.

Paul:  Yeah, I believe to make use of God’s creation medicinally and with knowledge and with prayer as a private conviction, biblically I imagine that you just have been supposed to hope about that and convey it earlier than God. And, if in case you have that relationship, then God will convict you come what may. And, I do imagine that any a part of God’s creation has medicinal worth and can be utilized properly. And, that might simply be as much as every couple or particular person in that state of affairs. 

I will offer you a fast story. This goes to the core of it for me. So, I’ve a pal and his spouse, on the age of 12, had most cancers in her mind they usually have been capable of drill into first aim they usually have been capable of take a number of the most cancers out. After which, they did a chemo drip on the remainder of it and it eradicated the most cancers however it completely affected her mind to the place she skilled despair. And so, she was a girl of religion and she or he prayed for years. I imply, I prayed for her a number of occasions that God would take away the despair. And, I imagine that generally despair is a religious state, and generally it’s a chemical imbalance of the mind. And, I prayed that God would heal her mind. And, if it was religious, that God would have extra energy in Jesus’ identify, no matter spirit it’s be gone. 

And, they got here to me they usually mentioned, “Paul, would you counsel that we do mushrooms as a result of she’s taken actually each tremendous sensible lady taking each form of drug that the docs have prescribed to her. And, a few of them assist for every week, week and a half, and swiftly, she’s getting suicidal or getting hallucinating or nearly bipolar tendencies.” And, it is like, “Effectively, is it higher that we’re giving that as a Christian?” We’re okay in the event that they go to the physician they usually have an artificial type of a drug and it creates as a facet impact of hallucination or suicidal ideas, however we’re not okay, cannot have peace with subjecting ourselves to God’s creation to see if it could actually heal in a way more pure method. 

And, I look to the previous and the longer term, and I believe sooner or later as Christians, what we’ll do is we’ll say, yeah, there’s this bizarre time the place there’s this programming the place the whole lot was unlawful and the federal government made God’s creation unlawful. And maybe, I used to be clever on some methods, after which maybe in different methods, we’re limiting the potential of therapeutic in our world. And, I am not saying that that drug ought to be used to go and have a full-on heroic journey, however I am saying if there’s medicinal worth to it, why ought to we not take into account it?

And so, I believe that is actually the guts of the problem for me is conviction earlier than God and having knowledge and consulting individuals who have truly gone by the method and who perceive it as effectively.

Ben:  Yeah. I believe my tackle that is that in the appropriate set and setting, in case you’re conscious of a few of these dangers and they are often mitigated that there’s a time and place as a result of let’s face it. If we have been to say, whereas there’s danger of this probably inflicting hurt, then you definately’d need to rule out penicillin and amoxicillin and issues that may influence the biome which might have a direct impact, I imply the biome can affect not simply the intestine but additionally the best way that the thoughts goes in despair and nervousness and goals and lucid visions. There’s all kinds of slippery slopes. 

I believe that, for me, the massive image right here is A, who’s facilitating, and has that individual been vetted and particularly, are they some shaman who’s in it for business pursuits or sexual curiosity or one thing like that? Or, is that this a doctor who’s standing by who has a really clear protocol in thoughts to have the ability to make it easier to out with one thing particularly that this drug is definitely indicated for? And, that might embrace a relationship or a trauma or an end-of-life remedy or a most cancers administration sort of concern. So, I believe that is one factor is who’s overseeing and in what set and setting.

I believe that the opposite factor to consider is what you have finished earlier than that time as a result of I believe lots of people who, as an instance that somebody has satisfied you that with a purpose to repair your relationship along with your partner, you could take MDMA and sit with them for hours observing them deep within the eye having an extended dialogue. Effectively, I assume my query for you’d be firsthand, have you ever tried that with out MDMA? Have you ever gone a bunch of lengthy walks collectively and simply sat and talked collectively and prayed collectively? And, this is similar factor with religious journeying. People who find themselves like, “I believe I simply must journey, bro. I believe that is going to be the answer to this deep-seated trauma inside me.” I say, “Effectively, did you exit within the forest and quick for 3 days, some water, and a Bible, and take that point that you just’d usually commit to your plant drugs journey and your dieta and your post-journey journaling and the whole lot and simply go off in a completely sober state and check out that first?” 

It is form of like testosterone remedy with dudes who’re simply, “Yeah, I’ve poor drive and I am not gaining muscle the best way that I wish to and my efficiency has decreased and I am not doing so effectively sexually and I believe I must get on testosterone immediately.” Effectively, I say, “Are you sleeping? Are you destressing? And, are you masking the bases like vitamin D and magnesium and boron and zinc and avoiding power cardio and lifting heavy stuff along with your legs and listening to all this low-hanging fruit and this pure fruit first otherwise you simply go into the massive weapons first since you’re both lazy or misinformed or need a simple method out?” So, I believe that along with the set and setting and the one who’s overseeing it, you additionally need to just be sure you’ve exhausted all the opposite choices first.

After which, I believe the very last thing that ought to be acknowledged right here is that allow’s say any person has finished all that and possibly a pair involves me they usually’re like, “Ben, are you able to hook me up with the one who you used for MDMA remedy as a result of we both have some relationship points we wish to kind or we’re doing nice, we simply wish to do that collectively to deepen our relationship?” Then, I might additionally closely take into account the place that individual is spiritually as a result of I would not truly ship a pair who, and I noticed this may sound it is stereotyping or being imply or form of like that, “Oh, in case you do not imagine in Jesus, you are going to hell” sort of argument, but when any person isn’t in place spiritually and particularly, if any person is not a Christian they usually’re a pal of mine who involves me needs to try this, I do know that by me inexperienced lighting it and connecting with my supply, then they’ll be going right into a religious house the place there’s stuff that might occur that goes past what they may expertise with their accomplice. And, they won’t have the ability to deal with that and they won’t have safety in that house. After which, I believe that, once more, it is enjoying with fireplace however in somewhat bit extra severe method once you’re coming into into that house with out that sort of safety, with out the safety of God on board.

And so, I noticed that for somebody who’s not a Christian, that simply sounds foolish. However, in case you have been going to return to me and ask me about my supply for medication or the appropriate set and setting to do that and who I ought to join you with, that might truly be one factor that I might say to you is, “Are you a Christian?” And, if the reply is not any, I might say, “Effectively, we have to handle another issues first. So, let’s handle that first.”

Paul:  Yeah. That is fascinating. I believe we all know after I first found you, it was truly fascinating to me since you have been professional in some ways in which I did not have freedom in. And, I noticed you extra of an experimenter with life generally. You did not have a line or a class that you just weren’t prepared to say, “Yeah, let’s simply strive it and see what occurs.” You are simply getting suggestions from the world and the substances on the planet. And, it has been fascinating to look at you begin to get some parameters and a few traces that you just really feel comfy or not comfy suggesting. And, I believe that is knowledge.

Ben:  Yeah, for positive. And clearly, a variety of issues to consider. And, I might welcome folks to leap into the dialogue, too, over at if in case you have your individual tackle a variety of these items.

I do have a pair different questions for you Paul if in case you have the time. And, the very first thing that I am interested in is relating to psychedelic communities turning into religions or being concerned with religions. So, we’re now seeing these items getting rolled out as part of church buildings, and we’re starting to see it in itself starting to perform as a kind of faith, we’re even seeing the writings of a man like Brian Muraresku and the e-book, “The Immortality Key,” indicating that these items has a job to play within the church and in Christianity. What are your ideas on the intersection between psychedelics and faith generally?

Paul:  Yeah, I believe the psychedelic communities that I am observing in America are turning into religions. And, at any time when I have interaction with these substances earlier than, I had some mates who did them with me or one thing and we’d describe our experiences to one another. However, I do not suppose we ever use the phrase “ego demise,” we by no means used the phrase “grandmother,” we by no means used “heroic dose,” possibly after discovering Terence McKenna again within the day, heroic dose, I imagine he popularized that time period. 

However, I am simply seeing an increasing number of now when folks have these experiences that they really have a language that permits them to categorize their expertise. And, that’s the beginnings of a spiritual system. And, to me, that’s such an fascinating commentary to see in America as a result of we’re adopting these practices from some indigenous cultures which have particular language. After which, I’ve additionally, what I have been actually, actually interested in is there is a podcast known as Blurry Creatures they usually did one on what folks see.

Ben:  Oh, yeah. I simply discovered that podcast Blurry Creatures. It is fairly cool.

Paul:  Oh, that is superior. I adore it. However, what folks see on DMT, and there’s a repetition of the identical kinds of beings and entities which are skilled with individuals who don’t have any prior information of these issues. And, to me what that’s doing is it is displaying that there’s a very clear religious path to subjecting yourselves to that particular if it is DMT or ayahuasca or no matter it’s, there’s a spirit behind it. And, as a result of if it was only a random hallucination, you would not have the identical individual or 100 folks and 9 of them describe a blue being coming to them and revealing issues or a snake. It is like, no, they’d simply be speaking about probably the most random issues if it was pure hallucination. 

And so, I imagine there’s a spirit that’s behind this stuff and it is revealing itself by language. And, the extra clear that it turns into, we’re truly watching a brand new type of faith come into being in America. And, there’s a spirit behind it that shall be extra clearly outlined. And, we’re truly actually watching it now. Everybody simply nods their heads and shakes us. “I have been by the ego demise. Sure, I transcended. Sure, my lineage wants therapeutic. Sure, I’m the observer.” There’s duality. It is simply this language simply began to emerge and it is simply so fascinating to me as a result of within the Christian world, in case you examine theology, there is a particular language that begins to emerge round totally different doctrines. And, that is the very same factor that is occurring with psychedelics and other people which are like, “Oh, it is all about freedom and lack of management and it has nothing to do with controlling faith, it is truly turning into a faith.” There’s some irony there.

Ben:  Yeah. I believe, that the concept that entheogens have been used within the early church would not essentially imply that they have been proper. I imply, I believe that is Paul wrote to the Corinthians warning in opposition to their use. So, I believe he was truly referring to that amongst different issues. I believe that after we see a variety of these items as you have been alluding to within the akashic report or in common human consciousness and these similar patterns and geometric shapes and entities emerge, I believe that a few of them are okay. I believe that God created the universe mathematically and there are Fibonacci sequences and sacred geometrical sequences and issues that have been apparently primarily based on a few of my readings of the Bible within the E book of Enoch and different scriptures revealed to human beings by gods and by the Nephilim and By Angels, the whole lot from metallurgy to plant medicines, to the secrets and techniques of music and sounds and frequencies and different issues that people found early on. I do suppose that a variety of that got here to them spiritually. 

I do not suppose that signifies that all of it’s fallacious and I additionally suppose that the truth that many individuals see the identical shapes, the identical buildings, the identical kaleidoscope geometry, sort of figures of their heads isn’t just as a result of that is the best way that serotonin and dopamine and GABA, et cetera, are firing. And, these neurochemicals have particular signatures that folks see in the identical method universally. However, I believe that we’re designed, so to talk, to really have a mathematical consciousness of sure components of our psyche that permit us to work together with this universe in the best way that it has been designed in a really mathematical method. And, that is all the best way all the way down to our DNA, for instance.

And so, yeah, that signifies that we now have an eye fixed for magnificence, we now have an eye fixed for construction and sure issues might be revealed to us through visions and goals, et cetera, and a few of that takes on the form of sure geometries, et cetera. However then, after we begin to see recurrences of the identical entities and the identical alien-like figures and a variety of the stuff that is talked about in that podcast that you just talked about known as Blurry Creatures, I believe that a variety of these are the kind of entities that we’re describing that once you’re venturing into this psychedelic realm, you are placing your self vulnerable to being influenced by. 

And once more, I might say that for me, I form of form of wish to say, “Effectively, I am okay, I am a Christian, I can deal with these issues. I am not going to be influenced by them or not less than I do know what to do after I encounter these creatures.” And, that is what I might have mentioned up till a 12 months and a half in the past till I actually familiarize myself with the truth that regardless of me eager to journey and liking it and having fun with these plant drugs experiences and feeling as if I used to be secure in these realms, the Bible flat out says, as a Christian, that it is a sin for me to be divining with the gods utilizing plant medicines. And so, I simply cannot anymore with proper conscience do it.

Paul:  Yeah. No, I fully agree with you. And, I believe that’s going to be the fascinating half for me and that is one thing that I’ve had rigidity with. For example, if in case you have any person who goes as an instance they’re Vietnam veterans, they went to Vietnam, they skilled the horrific nature of it, that they had killed folks, they needed to do issues they by no means imagined, they noticed issues they by no means imagined. To illustrate that they did not know Christ earlier than they went to Vietnam, and they also come dwelling, they provide their life to Jesus Christ, their lives are fully modified, their peace and pleasure, that individual in the event that they hear an explosion or in the event that they hear a gunshot or in the event that they hear a door open behind them, their relationship with Jesus Christ would not change their notion of that catalyst of their surroundings or that noise. They’ll nonetheless keep in mind what it was wish to be in Vietnam and react in a method that might be protecting to them maybe in a method that somebody who hadn’t been to Vietnam wouldn’t react to. And, I believe the identical factor might be utilized to individuals who have engaged psychedelics who at the moment are Christians is there may be that consciousness of these experiences and the insights do not go away you when you could have Jesus, you simply notice that you do not want them, they’re nearly partial truths and Jesus is the complete reality.

And, that to me is fascinating to look at particularly in case you have been to go to a random church the place you do not know anybody and also you simply observe the viewers and there shall be a man there who you possibly can inform simply treats his spouse like crap and would not love his children and he’s closed off to everybody and he is simply not conscious in any respect. And, there’s part of me that claims, “Why would not the Holy Spirit simply break that man? If he says he is aware of Jesus, why is the Holy Spirit not revealing himself to that man and displaying him how one can love his household and his children?” As a result of I do know if that man went into the woods and took some mushrooms that he —  spouse loves me and I deal with her like crap. My children, all they do is need my consideration. All I do is ignore them. Oh, my consuming, I am about to have a coronary heart assault. My physique is telling me this stuff. It is an fascinating factor to have subjected your self to these experiences earlier than after which to deliver that into the Christian religion and to nearly pray and marvel like, “Holy Spirit, please do in these folks and in me and in all people what the world can do by as psychedelic.” And, I imagine the Holy Spirit can and I imagine that that’s God’s alternative and His sovereignty and His timeline on how that occurs. And, me eager to topic the individual to that for his or her private development is egocentric and it is me pretending I do know higher than God. However, that could be a rigidity that I’ve having lived these experiences and observing Christianity as a complete.

Do you could have any ideas like that that you just ever have?

 Ben:  Yeah. I believe I are likely to agree with it. I believe that your e-book, “The Psychedelic Christian,” it actually outlines that entire journey and thought course of rather well. However yeah, I imply, I agree with it. I believe that there’s a sure use case, a sure set and setting, and a sure intention behind a few of these compounds past microdosing by which they may be acceptable. I believe that the thought of utilizing them to divine with the gods or to reinforce a spiritual or religious experiences flat out banned not within the e-book any longer. After which, in terms of relationships, end-of-life remedy, trauma, et cetera, that there are some very severe issues that must be taken into consideration who’s facilitating what is the set and setting and what’s the religious standing of the individual or folks partaking with these.

After which, the very very last thing I might threw in there may be I believe that there is a variety of unpredictability and a variety of, I assume, custom behind using vegetation like ayahuasca or psilocybin or huachuma or whatnot. That form of carry with them this darkish religious vitality that could be a little bit unpredictable and unwieldy that I’ve by no means skilled with artificial alternate options to these compounds.

And so, I believe that the final standards that I might throw in there can be even in case you match into all these classes effectively prefer it’s the appropriate set and setting and you have got the appropriate facilitator and the intention is to not divine with gods or something like that and also you’re in the appropriate place spiritually that you need to select synthetics as a substitute of vegetation. I simply really feel that is primarily based on private expertise that you’ve got loads higher management and there is much more predictability primarily based across the artificial compounds. I believe that the truth that the Creator made human beings with the flexibility to have the ability to create, and we will create some secure and efficient and clear alternate options to the unpredictable ones that we discover out within the pure plant kingdom, dictates that these can be loads smarter to make use of in case you do have a authentic medical use and wish for a few of these compounds.

Paul:  Fascinating. Yeah, I might disagree, however not sufficient for it to be a problem. I believe simply because largely all I ever did was eat. I will say 98% of the issues I partook in have been mushrooms. And, salvia is far more intense than the journey. Acid is a bit more electrical and sharper. TCBs, a rainbow and a symphony having a child in actuality in entrance of you. Yeah, it is an fascinating exploration of thought for positive. Yeah, it is fascinating that you will have subjected your self to extra synthetics than I did.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. There is a particular distinction, a particular distinction. And, I believe that the truth that little g god and large G God divine with folks through nature skirting that concern of a number of the unpredictability of a number of the plant compounds is somewhat bit safer method to go, once more, if there is a secure and legit and proper cause to make use of them within the first place. So, yeah.

So, it is so fascinating to navigate a variety of this. And, I believe, once more, again to the massive image concern is frankly on the finish of the day, I believe loads fewer folks than are at present utilizing these sort of compounds ought to be utilizing them or loads fewer folks must be utilizing these compounds primarily based on the impression that I get of the people who find themselves utilizing them as a shortcut or as an excuse they usually’re not conscious of a number of the risks. 

And so, I believe your e-book offers actually good perspective to this as effectively. I notice that folks have most likely heard me do eight podcasts on this now, so I hope you are not sick of me speaking about these items, I simply suppose that sometimes revisiting this and having a pleasant dialogue with one other one that’s well-versed with all this may be helpful for bringing different subjects to the desk. And once more, that is an ongoing dialogue. So, if you wish to be part of the dialogue, you go to It is And, you possibly can pop in with your individual feedback and questions and suggestions, and extra. 

So, that every one being mentioned, Paul, I believe we’re getting somewhat bit brief on time, however I am tremendous grateful that you just have been capable of be part of me and chat about this somewhat bit extra.

Paul:  Yeah, loved the dialog, Ben. I respect your stance proper now and what you are providing to the world. And, I will simply pray that God will proceed to bless your life. And, yeah, get pleasure from this dialog.

Ben:  Thanks man. Thanks. God bless you, bro. And, let’s be in contact.

And folk, you may get the e-book, “The Christian Psychedelic,” I will put a hyperlink to it within the shownotes at And, till subsequent time. I am Ben Greenfield together with Paul Risse signing out from Have a tremendous week.

Alright, that is cool, however you wish to concentrate as a result of it is arising proper across the nook on Friday, December 2nd. You are going to get an opportunity to affix me and a few actually highly effective therapeutic physicians down in Sarasota, Florida. It is a stay occasion. It goes from 8:00 a.m. to five:00 p.m. I will be there, my pal, and an excellent former podcast visitor, The Physician Unusual of Medication, Dr. John Lieurance goes to be there, HBOT USA, Dr. Jason and Melissa Sonners are going to be there with their Hyperbaric Oxygen Remedy, Brian Richards of SaunaSpace, Harry Paul, one among John’s mates who I lately met who’s additionally a tremendous healer for an occasion that is tremendous distinctive. It is all primarily based across the components: earth, fireplace, air, and water, with a ton of remedies and applied sciences and modalities, and really distinctive biohacks that you’ll get uncovered to throughout all the occasion.

Principally, what I imply by that’s in terms of air, you are going to study hyperbaric oxygen, and ozone, and air filtration, the whole lot you could know to improve your air. On the subject of earth, pulsed electromagnetic discipline remedy, earthing, grounding, a number of different ways in which you need to use the ability of the planet to reinforce your well being, your sleep, your restoration, your muscle achieve, your fats loss, much more water. You will study correct water filtration, how one can improve your water, hydrogenated water, structured water, mainly soup to nuts, the whole lot you could learn about water and how one can apply it in your house and your workplace and your life. After which, lastly fireplace, is a enjoyable one. Numerous cryotherapy, somewhat little bit of ice too, breathwork, inside fireplace practices, a ton of stuff in terms of introducing the ingredient of fireplace into your life.

So, this occasion is tremendous distinctive. John and I’ve been engaged on it behind the scenes and it has come collectively amazingly. There’s even a VIP expertise. In case you join the VIP expertise, you might come two days early or keep a couple of days after the occasion, and mainly, you’re going to get all of the medical protocols personalized by Dr. John and his workers in case you declare a type of 10 VIP spots. That’ll embrace IV methylene blue, laser remedies, John’s actually distinctive bliss launch, which is mainly an endonasal adjustment, which is basically a chiropractic adjustment by your nostril on your complete cranium, which in case you’ve had TBI or concussion or allergy symptoms or issues like that previously, it completely reboots that complete system. There’s going to even be ozone remedies, Myers’ IV cocktails, exosome remedies, IV laser, entry to a CVAC machine. And, John’s complete facility goes to be at your beck and name in case you acquired one of many VIP tickets.

After which, we’re additionally most likely going to have somewhat little bit of a celebration in a while within the night after this occasion. The entire thing goes to be a pinch-me-I am-dreaming full-on cutting-edge of biohacking expertise. And, I am simply now letting the world learn about it so spots are going to refill fairly quick. House is proscribed, however if you wish to get in now, here is how. You go to That is It is in Sarasota, Florida. Once more, it is all-day Friday, December 2nd. I might are available in early and keep after. In case you simply wish to check out all of the loopy modalities there. I do not know the way quick these VIP tickets are going to promote out, however both method, this factor goes to be completely wonderful. I simply cannot wait, like I am pinching myself, cannot wait to be on the airplane to go down there and do that. So, test it out, BenGreenfieldLife/Parts-Occasion. And, I will see you there, I hope.

Greater than ever as of late, folks such as you and me want a contemporary entertaining, well-informed, and infrequently outside-the-box strategy to discovering the well being, and happiness, and hope that all of us crave. So, I hope I have been in a position to try this for you on this episode as we speak. And, in case you appreciated it or in case you love what I am as much as, then please go away me a assessment in your most well-liked podcast listening channel wherever that may be and simply discover the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say one thing good. Thanks a lot. It means loads.



Plant drugs, psychedelics, Christianity, spirituality.

For the previous 12 months, I have been engrossed in how these subjects match collectively, if and the way I wish to incorporate these practices and ideas into my life, and what I wish to share with you in case you’re additionally seeking to kind by issues your self.

What has been significantly useful on this means of thought and examine is speaking to (and studying books written by) different people who find themselves additionally on this reflective journey. Paul Risse is a type of folks. Paul first joined me on the podcast “The Christian Psychedelic: Ought to Christians Use Plant Medicines, Is Microdosing (Or Tripping) A Sin, Accessing Non secular Realms, DMT & A lot Extra With Paul Risse & Ben Greenfield.” At this time, Paul is again.

A former private coach for shoppers on ABC’s Excessive Makeover TV present in L.A., Paul was the Private Coach, Chef, and Life Coach for “Common Joe on the Uncooked” (documentary out there on Meals Issues TV). After consuming 100% uncooked vegan for a few years, and dwelling off-grid with out electrical energy for a 12 months, Paul says he now eats intuitively.

Paul can be the CEO of Cleanse America, the place he has led 10,000 folks by a cleaning course of over two years, writing quite a few eBooks, producing movies, and orchestrating every of those cleanses. He constructed his personal home with out expertise going into the method, and he wrote a e-book concerning the journey known as “Kinda Tiny Residence, An Unorthodox Method to Constructing and Proudly owning Your Personal Residence.”

Maybe most related to as we speak’s present, Paul took psychedelics round 1,000 occasions over a decade, together with DMT, Salvia, 2CB, 2CI, and LSD, although 99% of what he engaged in was mushrooms. Paul lately launched a e-book known as “The Psychedelic Christian,” which is a component artwork, free verse, poetry, Bible verses, spirit realm exploration, testimony, and Holy Spirit encounters.

Paul is at present a proportion proprietor with the Hayhurst Brothers, the place he’s concerned in design, constructing, advertising and marketing, and gross sales. Hayhurst Brothers are designers and homebuilders primarily based out of Bridgeport, TX, and have been featured on the DIY community and HGTV. Paul describes his spouse, Brittany Risse as “a lovely and sensible lady,” they usually have an “wonderful” 23-year-old daughter named Kalee Risse. Paul loves Jesus, philosophy, significant conversations, journey, and life generally – and most significantly, he feels God calling him to share his testimony with the world.

Throughout our dialogue, you may uncover:

-How Paul initially grew to become keen on plant medicines…8:28

-What dose of mushrooms did Paul usually take…10:56

  • Microdosing wasn’t actually “a factor” when Paul began taking mushrooms
  • Normally taken with the intention of hallucinating

-Paul’s ideas on microdosing…11:57

  • Podcasts on plant medicines:
  • Considerations round unintentionally encouraging others to make use of plant drugs and the potential risks
  • Believes there might be nice advantages in recovering from trauma, PTSD, nervousness, and despair
  • Worries about overuse

-The distinction between religious and psychedelic experiences…18:17

  • The Psychedelic Christian by Paul Risse
  • What Paul would see within the spirit realm and the way they impacted him, bodily and spiritually
  • Non secular experiences have been a lot clearer than psychedelic experiences

-Ben’s expertise with religious journeying…21:06

-Paul’s use of fasting to reinforce the religious journey and his suggestion to watch out with the origins of some types of meditation and breathwork…24:48

  • Tantric respiration and transcendental meditation have religious roots exterior of God
  • Breathe to attach with God

-Paul’s revelations by writing his e-book The Psychedelic Christian…30:31

  • How the phrases of God got here alive in Paul’s coronary heart and soul

-If folks have breakthroughs with plant medicines, corresponding to therapeutic childhood trauma, what’s the downside with utilizing them?…35:50

  • Paul skilled a hidden pleasure as a result of he was turning into extra superior in his journey
  • “The Enemy” is content material with you buying and selling your worry for pleasure

-Two concerns that Ben hadn’t thought of when utilizing plant drugs to change into nearer to God…39:42

  1. He was enjoying with fireplace each time he was utilizing medication to enter right into a religious realm and will have encountered an evil entity
  2. For each 9 folks with expertise, 1 individual might have a foul one
    • There’s sturdy potential for one thing to go fallacious
    • That is the place the “fruits are good” argument breaks down for Ben

-Medicinal use for therapeutic from trauma…47:06

  • Earlier than utilizing, deliver your questions earlier than God
  • God’s creation ought to be used properly
  • Paul’s story a couple of pal’s spouse who had most cancers when she was twelve and who grew to become depressive after chemo
  • Who’s facilitating/overseeing the journey

-Ben’s tendency to not encourage {couples} to journey until they’re already spiritually on path as a Christian…55:02

  • Enjoying with fireplace with out the safety of God onboard

-Paul’s ideas on the intersection of psychedelics and faith…57:45

-The darkish religious vitality of plant drugs that Ben hasn’t skilled with artificial alternate options, and why Ben recommends selecting synthetics…1:07:40

  • Paul’s expertise (or lack of) with synthetics
  • The distinction between plant medicines and synthetics

-And way more…

Upcoming Occasions:

  • Parts Of Vitality with Dr. John Lieurance, Ben Greenfield & Mates: December 2, 2022, 8:00 AM – 5:00 PM EST.

Dr. John Lieurance & Ben Greenfield provide a uncommon expertise to discover the weather of Earth, Hearth, Air, and Water with distinctive remedies, applied sciences, modalities, and biohacks to signify the therapeutic powers of every ingredient individually. Be taught extra right here.

Assets talked about on this episode:

– Paul Risse:

– Podcasts And Articles:

– Different Assets:

Episode sponsors:

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Parts of Vitality Occasion: Be a part of me in Sarasota, Florida, with Dr. John Lieurance on Friday, Dec 2nd from 8:00 am-5:00 pm for a uncommon expertise exploring the weather of Earth, Hearth, Air, and Water with distinctive remedies, applied sciences, modalities, and biohacks to signify the therapeutic powers of every ingredient individually. Declare your spot as we speak at

I am Christian Nnakuzierem Alozie (Kris Kuzie Alozie). A native of Eziama Nneato in Umunneochi LGA, Abia State, Nigeria. I am an inspirational writer and a motivational speaker. And above all, a lover of charity.

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